FR: Never unexpectedly change column sort ordering

[mr_bug]

I'm sure this has been raised before but I couldn't identify a topic regarding it after a quick search. I'll start by mentioning the frustration:

For many years at least, Mp3tag's columns have been a footgun. What I mean is, sometimes I'll drag audio files into the program and, for example, instead of the pervious sort ordering of items being ordered by my preference of total disc number -> disc number -> track number, the files will be ordered by track number, i.e. all track 1s will be grouped together, then all track 2s, etc. I've not investigated why exactly this happens but I'd prefer that it didn't.

If you don't notice these sorting changes whilst tagging, you can write the wrong metadata or produce M3U8 playlist files which encode the incorrect ordering. Sometimes it can just be one file which has jumped to the bottom of the file list whilst the others seemingly remain ordered (I think the footgun has something to do with having dragged the files into Mp3tag). Either way, I'm often having to click the track number column header, followed by the total disc number column header, and then finally the disc number column header to get Mp3tag back into my expected state to avoid errors -- which I'm sure I've not done with 100% success.

This feature request could be to implement something akin to Directory Opus' ability to define how the file list is sorted (the effect that Mp3tag kind of already has by successively clicking columns headers), and for that ordering to remain unchanged until a column header is manually clicked.

(the Sort column defines the final ordering that the file list will receive. The small black arrows define whether a particular column sorts in ascending or descending order.)

Even without this feature, simply having the columns never change how files are sorted unless a column header has been clicked would be a blessing. The proposed feature would only really be useful as a means to concretely set the state each time Mp3tag opens, so that any manual / temporary / accidental user changes to columns sorting would reset upon each launch. Regardless, either solution would be better than the current unpredictable and error-prone behaviour.

Thanks.

Mp3tag 3.36.1

---

I did a little investigating: Dragging a selection of individual files into Mp3tag from File Explorer will add them in a random order every time. Dragging the parent folder in (with or without a M3U8 contained within) will add the files according to the column sorting (the same for when dragging in an M3U8). It's just when dragging in audio files that this issue occurs, which points towards this being a bug...

[ohrenkino]

@mr_bug

This feature request could be to implement something akin to Directory Opus' ability to define how the file list is sorted

This feature should already be available with the property "Sort by" in a column definition. There you can set a format string which is used for sorting as soon as the column is used for sorting.

Sorting in general only happens on request and not automatically.

Any newly added files are added at the bottom of the list.
If you add a playlist, then the order from the playlist is taken and the files are added at the bottom.

If you want to sort files always by

@mr_bug

disc number -> track number

then try as "Sort by" property for the column for DISCNUMBER and TRACK:
%album%$num(%discnumber%,2)$num(%track%,2)
and you will always get files sorted by ALBUM, DISCNUMBER and then TRACK as soon as you click on either column.
But you have to click everytime you add further files to an already loaded list.

[mr_bug]

Thank you, I hadn't looked at that and I can see how it could be helpful. I don't mind having to click a column header once I add additional files to the file list as automatically sorting them would likely be disorientating. I don't usually have to click a header because Mp3tag remembers the sorting that I prefer.

The main issue, I believe, is that when dragging files from File Explorer into Mp3tag's file list, the file list is replaced and it is randomly ordered, requiring a manual sorting afterwards. Why? When I right click a folder and choose to open it in Mp3tag (be Mp3tag open or closed), I don't expect a random order, and it isn't randomly ordered, so why should it be randomly ordered when I drag a bunch of files in which replace the file list? I expect my files to appear sorted as they usually are.

[ohrenkino]

@mr_bug

When I right click a folder and choose to open it in Mp3tag (be Mp3tag open or closed), I don't expect a random order, and it isn't randomly ordered, so why should it be randomly ordered when I drag a bunch of files in which replace the file list?

I am not sure if this observation is completely accurate.
An apparently random order can be caused by a previous sort criterion for which there is no distinguishing data in the new files.
The files then get listed in the sequence as delivered by the OS.

[mr_bug]

Okay, some more detail:

The ordering of the listed files in Mp3tag does indeed appear to be based on what the OS hands it upon dragging them in. But what I was not aware of is that the user must drag the files in from the first selected file in the File Explorer selection. If you do not, the files will be not 'randomly' ordered as I had previously stated, but actually ordered but shifted by n. For example, If I drag in a 5 track EP, initiating the drag from the 3rd file item in File Explorer, Mp3tag will list them in track order 3, 4, 5, 1, 2. If this is the default behaviour of a fresh Mp3tag installation, then it must be addressed as this is not good UX.

However, there is a solution: a custom Sort by format for columns, as @ohrenkino pointed out. With a Disc Number column configured with $num(%discnumber%,2)$num(%track%,2), no matter which file I initiate a drag from in File Explorer, the files will be ordered correctly in Mp3tag, 1->5. But of course, if I have another column selected and it does not have a Sort by value set, the same UX issue will be encountered.

I believe there are two layers to this problem: The raw order of the files the OS hands Mp3tag, and then the Sort by ordering which takes place after the handover. I'm not sure what the best approach to bettering this issue would be, as an internal pre-processing sorting of the raw file order could introduce a 2x slowdown if Mp3tag then in addition sorts a second time based upon a present Sort by value. Shipping sane Sort by values for each column is another possible solution, but then the poor UX can still be triggered through bad configuration by the user, but it'd be better than nothing.

Perhaps give us a way to define a default Sort by which takes effect when no Sort by value is present for a column, and ship a sane default value for it too? This to me sounds like the right approach, presuming I've now correctly identified the issue.

Edit: Interestingly, this is only an issue with File Explorer; Directory Opus always hands Mp3tag files in order.

[ohrenkino]

@mr_bug

Shipping sane Sort by values for each column is another possible solution

This is already the case: if nothing is defined in "Sort by" then the plain value from the "Value" is taken as sort criterion.

The problem of files not being in the order that may be expected has also been discussed in the context of external storages inserted in car stereos, see, e.g. here:

Track order not working

It could be that the player uses the order in which files got copied to the device. Delete all the tracks on the device, Sort them correctly in the windows explorer, Select the files in the windows explorer move the mouse cursor to the first file in the list and then, with the focus on the first file, drag&drop the files to the device. This should start the transfer really with the first file. Otherwise the file under the mouse cursor gets copied first. See also here:

It still boils down to: you have to sort again if the data in the already loaded files has changed or further files have been added.
There is no unexpected change of sorting order.

[mr_bug]

@ohrenkino

This is already the case: if nothing is defined in "Sort by" then the plain value from the "Value" is taken as sort criterion.

I understand this, but the default of the "Value" value still doesn't do enough to ensure that the files won't be in an undesirable order. By sane I meant some kind of constraint to the disc and track numbers as this would present files to the user in a manner that most would expect.

@ohrenkino

It still boils down to: you have to sort again if the data in the already loaded files has changed or further files have been added.
There is no unexpected change of sorting order.

I don't want to sort the columns once or again, nor should I have to. The default should be that files are ordered in a way that makes sense when dragged in (without the specific requirement of having to drag from the first file in a selection which isn't intuitive or explained...). There's no good argument against that. This is either a problem File Explorer needs to fix (unlikely), or Mp3tag to take the responsibility of and handle.

Just try it: Open Mp3tag (no files loaded, but it doesn't matter) -> dragging from the middle of a selection, drag files from File Explorer into Mp3tag -> files are presented shifted by n track number.

Why should we have to perform a manual sort to fix this? Would it be fine if dragging a folder in would also present files disorganised? What about when opening a playlist file? At what point would you start to feel the unergonomic behaviour? There's an obvious expectation here...

[ohrenkino]

@mr_bug

There's no good argument against that

There is.
I just ordered files in explorer by title which led to the file with TRACK=4 being first in the row.
In MP3tag the column for ARTIST was the active one for sorting.

If the order from the explorer would have been taken, then the first file should be the one with TRACK=4.
When I looked at the dragged files, the one with "A" as a starting letter for ARTIST was the first to be shown.
This was the inital, empty list or if you d&d files so that they replace the old ones, the same thing happens: the last sorting criterion is used. Reproduceably.

Taking the first initial list but adding now files which again have been sorted by TITLE and d&d with Ctrl being pressed, so that these files get added, reproduces the list as created in the Windows Explorer.

But these are files with already present data in the fields.
As soon as you add or open files with no data in the last sorted column, the order seems to be random as the files are taken as they come from the OS.

These files are all sorted by the same data which is "nothing there".
The same could be observed if you sort by a column which shows the same data for all the files, e.g. ALBUM.
Sorting only works if you have a criterion that can be sorted. If there is no difference, then it looks like nothing has been sorted.

@mr_bug

What about when opening a playlist file?

A playlist is represented in the order found in that playlist.
Please try it.

@mr_bug

Just try it: Open Mp3tag (no files loaded, but it doesn't matter) -> dragging from the middle of a selection, drag files from File Explorer into Mp3tag -> files are presented shifted by n track number.

This only applies if the previous sorting criterion points to non-existent data.
How should MP3tag guess what your

@mr_bug

obvious expectation

are.

BTW: the Windows Explorer is no better when sorting files with the same data:
Example: same data in "Albuminterpret"

Example: same data in "Album"

[mr_bug]

Lots of moving parts it seems, which makes this confusing to communicate about I think. This should not be this complex. From my perspective, there's certainly something wrong here or which needs improvement.

If I'm sorting by disc number (no 'Sort by' set) and dragging files in (try with a multi-disc album):

File Explorer (FE) orders the files correctly by the active column in Mp3tag as you point out about the artist column -- but only if you drag in the first item selected in FE * (this assumes your FE is listing the files in the same order that they would typically be in a media player -- I understand that they may not be for other people).

This is my criticism: dragging from any item in FE should result in the files being sorted logically (I don't care if this is done by respecting the current sorting of the file manager / OS, or through sane 'Sort by' values, or by some other means, but what I end up seeing in Mp3tag should not be a mess after a drag-and-drop, it's that simple). Maybe this is FE's fault, but since it's the default and most common file manager used with Mp3tag, something should be done to remedy this from Mp3tag's side.

• Some experimentation on my side: If you select the multi-disc album's files in FE and drag from any track except for the first from disc 1, only disc 1 will be shifted by n in Mp3tag. Disc 2 will display logically ordered. There's no reason why this should be what the user has to deal with.
• Now try the opposite, drag from any track but the first from disc 2: now disc 1 displays neatly in logical order, but disc 2 displays shifted by n... Clearly a poor baseline experience.
• Further testing: Reversing the sort order of the files in FE to Z-A: Now there's no way to drag the files in (without resorting to defining a 'Sort by') that's much use. A manual sorting would still be required.

* It turns out if you drag from track 1 on disc 2 the album again displays in perfect order. So it appears that if you're not dragging from a file with TRACK=1, the files will be listed out of order for no good reason. This assumes FE ordering by A-Z.

Directory Opus (DO), produces the same behaviour as FE but without the need to drag from the file with the lowest or highest track number for some semblance of order in Mp3tag.

As far as I can understand, Mp3tag has needlessly complicated this. Why even respect the file manager's ordering at all when a column is just going to manipulate it in some way afterwards? It would be fine if the resulting manipulation made some kind of sense, but it doesn't do so reliably without sane 'Sort by' values which constrain things.

Should each and every user have to solve this themselves? No. Simplify things. Ignore whatever order the OS hands Mp3tag and do some baseline sorting before applying the column sort. Dragging and dropping into Mp3tag will become predictable and perhaps even understandable by the average user.

My Mp3tag installation is old, so it's possible my columns have changed from whatever the defaults currently are. I cannot provide more feedback than this to get the point across. I use a lot of software and this flow is spaghetti as far as I'm concerned. I can deal with it: I'll rely only upon Directory Opus since File Explorer doesn't play as nicely with Mp3tag, and configure the columns to work around this behaviour. Still, I argue it should not be the user having to use a third-party file manager and improve the UX through fields and functions to untangle this.

Thanks for your input @ohrenkino but it seems we are either not understanding each other or have different ideas of what makes for a good user experience.

[ohrenkino]

@mr_bug I just tried to give an outline of the current functions and ways to adapt it to one's needs.
Let's see if changes get implemented.
Until this happens, individual settings in the "Sort by" property as described in

FR: Never unexpectedly change column sort ordering

This feature should already be available with the property "Sort by" in a column definition. There you can set a format string which is used for sorting as soon as the column is used for sorting. Sorting in general only happens on request and not automatically. Any newly added files are added at the bottom of the list. If you add a playlist, then the order from the playlist is taken and the files are added at the bottom. If you want to sort files always by then try as "Sort by" property …

are the easiest way to use more than just one criterion for sorting permanently.